What Will HPISD Do About Discrimination? Nothing?
My November 5 column is about the Boy Scouts of America and the active discrimination taking place on Highland Park ISD property. I shared an option for the district, though a tough one, that would show the country what we think about discrimination and show one student how far we’re willing to go to back up what we’ve taught him.
It’s not about the BSA’s right to exclude, that’s been determined. And it’s not a gay thing. It’s about the sacrifice HPISD is or isn’t willing to make for a more meaningful impact.
By Merritt Patterson
Nov. 8, 2010 | 2:10 pm | 76 Comments | Comments RSS
76 comments to "What Will HPISD Do About Discrimination? Nothing? "
It’s up to the father to show how far he is willing to go to make sure his son can continue in his role as a cub scout.
It’s up to the father to show how far he is willing to go to make sure his son can continue as a cub scout.
I propose that another venue open its doors so that HPISD doesn’t have to make that decision. My idea: Dallas Country Club. It’s a private club, loves discriminating, is conveniently located, and, while the clubhouse is under construction for the next year or so, they shouldn’t have any conflicting meetings. Plan B is James Tucker’s house.
What are you talking about? The son’s cub scout membership was never an issue. Personally, I wouldn’t want my child to continue as a Cub Scout, which is sad because I know it can be a fantastic organization. Fortunately there are plenty of other youth organizations that foster leadership, build character and uphold strong values that don’t follow outdated and discriminatory guidelines. In case you misunderstood, the big issue here is the father’s removal from volunteer leadership based on his sexual orientation. Remember?!!!
Who will indemnify the BSA when a pedophile ‘leader’ (again, certainly not the fine Mr. Langbert) – who all knew was gay – molests a scout? How can the BSA possibly discriminate *among* gays? The solution was to ban gays in leadership positions altogether.
Secondly, many many private groups do in fact believe that homosexuality is immoral. Some of them say “hate the sin, love the sinner”, some not, but they do in fact disapprove. Why does that make them wrong and you right? Maybe they just disagree?
It seems to me that the progressives will chase any and all disagreements from the public square (including public school buildings) until all who remain are in perfect agreement. All one of them, The State.
Isn’t Highland Park great!?
Maybe HPISD should prohibit all outside groups from using facilities. That way, no one/everyone can be offended.
@ Eric: Should the boy scouts ban heterosexual leaders because there have been heterosexuals who have abused boys in the past?
We need to keep thinking, but I’m afraid that nothing will change until enough parents say that–however wonderful the Boy Scout experience is and however much of a tradition it is in their family and however valuable they think being an Eagle Scout will be when applying to college–they refuse to be part of an organization that explicitly discriminates against gays, atheists, and the Unitarian Church.
It’s sort of like no matter how many times your church, Merritt, has insulted Harry Potter or supported the clinic-interfering judgment-avoiding minister or had members involved in the recent campaign materials you found dishonest or even perhaps speaks out against gays on occasion–you, for many good reasons, are still a member there, I assume, and still think the good outweighs the bad. And so do many parents of Boy Scouts.
Rather than changing HPISD, what about a movement for Scouts to wear rainbow colored ribbons on their uniforms to raise awareness and encourage change, to say, “I like being a Scout but I don’t like their policy on gays?”
What is the universal thing that “we’ve taught him [Carter]” that pertains to this situation?
Does the Park Cities have a universal policy about discrimination that applies to this situation? Does HPISD?
The statements that are made by you at the beginning of this post and in your column assume that those universal policies exist and are agreed upon by everyone in our community. The use of the word “we” in this post assumes a commonality of thought that doesn’t exist.
Another thing about this post Merritt is You speak of the “sacrifice HPISD is or isn’t willing to make..”. What sacrifices has Jon Langbert made in this situation? And why should we make sacrifices when he is not making the ones that are patently obvious to a lot of us? What sacrifices should he be making? Read my post to @zoe.
The challenge in accepting homosexuals into scouting isn’t so much the boys or girls themselves, but the problems associated with preventing homosexual BEHAVIORS. Scouting has nothing to do with sex or sexual preferences. There are no “boyfriend” or “girlfriend” or “dating” merit badges, that’s not what scouting is all about. It shouldn’t matter if a scout of either gender might find other scouts of the same gender attractive, just as long as those attractions are NEVER acted upon in association with scouting.
The problem is almost entirely about ACTING on those attractions; not having them. (This is the same problem the military faced.)
The challenge is different for adults who are potential scout leaders. Boy Scouts, and Girl Scouts, cannot afford to have a single incident of sexual abuse of a child. Period. Homosexuals must never be allowed to be scout leaders. The risk of damage to a child, lawsuits, and injury to the reputation of scouting is just too great – as we already know.
It’s not a matter of discriminating against someone; rather, it’s the enormous risk of the behaviors. But, there’s a reason lumber mills don’t even think about hiring pyromaniacs.
It’s one thing to discriminate against people; it’s another to be discriminating about acceptable behaviors.
A single incident of pedophilia with a child can ruin that child’s life, and that’s also just one of many horrible and unpleasant consequences. So, it’s never worth the risk.
I don’t have the answer to how scout leaders develop a magic crystal ball to know which homosexual or self-believed homosexual scouts will or won’t engage in unacceptable behaviors. But, I do believe scouting is important enough in a child’s life to try and find some answers that don’t compromise the principles of scouting, but allow even more children to participate while protecting all of those children from potential harm.
I don’t think Highland Park is the problem. Rather, I think it is a heightened and natural case of parent awareness and concern that permeates the school and makes the situation so intense.
I also want to let 1635 know that scouting is not about religion. It never has been. Rather, it respects the Judeo-Christian traditions of America, and promotes respect by scouts for religious beliefs. It IS, however, very patriotic. There’s nothing wrong with that, I trust.
That said, I applaud Merritt Patterson for taking on a very difficult and controversial topic.
As I said above, scouting (of either gender) has nothing to do with sex, sexual preferences, assumed sexual orientation, dating, or anything else that has to do with sex. It’s about very different things.
I think there are solutions for find ways children who MIGHT be oriented toward homosexuality can still participate in scouting, but totally avoid the unwanted and unacceptable behaviors. But, like most successful compromises between people, it starts not with protests but the mutual exchange of views and introspective listening.
Pride and fear is what got Troop 70 into this predicament.
Excellent point regarding access.
While I don’t believe in BSA’s stance regarding gays, I do recognize their right as a private organization to set their own rules.
But their access and influence in a public school system is wrong.
The question is whether it’s a good idea for HPISD to support organizations who discriminate Period. Although it’s an extreme example, I gotta ask…would you support the KKK holding meetings in our schools?
We all discriminate. In fact, most of our parents teach us to be discriminating about our friends, where we hang out, and what causes we associate with. In this particular instance, the discrimination is more about damaging and unwanted behaviors than against people.
I believe Highland Park should continue it long-time traditional support of scouting. Girl Scouts, and Boy Scouts, have produced a number of our community leaders, and certainly leadership in the military, in business, in the arts, in sciences, in government service, and in other areas of career pursuits.
Having participated in scouting, and as a parent, I believe adult homosexuals should be kept as far away from scouting leadership as possible. The risk is not worth it. But, I do believe there must surely be a way to bring kids who may have same-sex infatuation tendencies into scouting as long as they understand any associative behaviors would be grounds for being expelled. (If they can agree with that rule, which is basically “Don’t Ask – Don’t Tell”, then things might work out just fine.)
However, I wouldn’t punish scouting or Highland Park because scouting has high moral standards and stands for most of the personal characteristics we try to encourage in our children. It’s not the kids who are “discriminating”; why punish them?
It’s also an interesting correlation that you can bring in all kinds of random and nonsensical arguments to this case similar to your arguments on the alcohol sales vote.
Excellent work all around.
It’s all about Jon Langbert’s reaction and what he is going to do blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah read my previous posts to @blah, blah, blah blah.
Merritt, could you look into that angle? You could get lots of support, I bet, for stopping HPISD’s other avenues of endorsement through the school/troop partnerships.
PTAs are independent organizations, make their own decisions about newsletter contents, could push the BSA all they want and sponsor troops, just as in the past some of our schools’ PTAs have printed Jesus-y Bible verses to enlighten their Jewish members. (Hmm…would stopping access to buildings for outside groups mean PTAs couldn’t meet at schools either?)
The protection, like the pyromaniac in the lumber yard, is not to allow homosexuals to become scout leaders. It’s just not worth the risk to the children, and to scouting. Under “Don’t Ask – Don’t Tell”, the focus is on unwanted behaviors. I would propose, for the scouts (boy or girl), that might be able to work. But, How do you know which gay adult is most likely to be a potential child molester?
It is not, and should never be, up to the school district to negotiate operational decisions in scouting simply because scouts meet in school buildings. In fact, too many schools are already meddling in way too many things instead of placing their focus where it needs to be.
We all pay five-figure taxes. That has nothing to do with the Boy Scouts; and shouldn’t. Homosexuality is wholly inconsistent with, and antithetical to, the purposes of scouting. As I said above, there is nothing in scouting that is about sex; no merit badges, no nothing. That’s the way it should be.
If parents want to teach their children about homosexuals, they can and should do that at home. But, scouting, like basketball or the YMCA, is not the place.
I do believe it is possible to allow children into scouting who may be confused (or no longer confused) about attractions to the opposite sex. I don’t have the magic answer for how to do it and assure protection for the rest of the kids – which has to be the primary goal. But, I remain committed that homosexual adults should never be anywhere near scouting, especially if they are public about it.
But, I’m glad Merritt brought the subject up. It needs to be discussed.
As you said, the focus is on the kids, where it should be. Our community is fortunate to have men and women willing to serve as scout leaders, and to mentor children into responsible and capable adults. The School District, representing and supported by Park Cities tax payers, should continue to support this worthwhile contribution to our children and our community.
But, I’m glad this is being discussed. Too often, I think we take for granted many of the assets that make our community the great place it is.
HPISD is not obligated to “fix” this situation. It is a no win for them all around–however they decide, someone will complain. The US Military has been trying to settle “Don’t Ask” for the last 20 years and has failed miserably. Yet, we are expecting a school who allows religious lunchtime “visitors” to the school to act? The schools have enough on their plate with the bullies, drugs, etc. If everyone is so offended by the school’s participation, how ’bout this group of parents fix it by themselves? Meet at someone’s house like we used to in the old days.
Change will come from one thing–lack of participation. If you have a problem with BSA’s policy, don’t let your kids participate. How about directing all this rage to a write in campaign to BSA instead of the blog? If the majority decides the policy is antiquated, BSA will be forced to change.
By the way PCP, does this mean you won’t publish the names and pictures of Eagle Scouts anymore? Doesn’t the same pressure that applies to the schools apply to you?
Guess we now know what the k stands for.
Seriously kmom, start whatever you want if the law permits it. I might not join, but I’ll respect your right to associate with those of your choosing.
You apparently don’t know much about scouting. If you ever go to a Jamboree, you will see parents of all shapes, sizes, colors, nationalities, healthy and handicapped, racially-mixed, tall and short, and so on. (If there are gay parents there, they don’t announce it; “Don’t Ask – Don’t Tell”. Nothing is going on at the events that has to do with sex.)
It is not hate or bigotry to want to protect kids from being sexually molested or abused. That you may think otherwise is your right. But, you can only imagine how strange that sounds.
So the purpose of scouting is heterosexual sex acts? That’s the only thing “wholly inconsistent.”
Pyro/Lumberyard and gay/pedophile aren’t in the same ballpark. I was in Boy Scouts and I was an altar boy. The creepiness that was/is the altar boy/priest relationship was far and away worse than anything I, or my friends, encountered in scouts. In scouts, I couldn’t tell you if the leaders were gay, straight or bent. It never came up. In creepy catholic world, we knew the priests were supposed to be celibate, but…well we all know how that’s gone down.
You equate gay=pedophile. Wrong. Gay people like people of their own sex. Pedophiles like minors.
I doubt the “Gay Jew UP Dad” was plying his troop with Jesus Juice while regalling them with stories from Cedar Springs and Pride Parades.
Is it their right to discriminate? Yes.
Is it right? That’s now a matter of opinion.
That’s their right.
I know what BSA says about homosexuality, and they have a point, as you know. The real problem boils down to homosexual practices and behaviors; not the people, themselves. But, the huge risk of sexual predators is not something to ignore.
We could debate the science all day about whether there are really homosexually-disposed children. Generally, I think there are not, but there do seem to be some. But, where scouting is concerned, I don’t think it should matter. What DOES matter is so much as a single instance of homosexual behavior. (Boys play with Barbie; girls play with GI Joe; the world won’t stop turning. That’s obviously not what I’m talking about.)
Scouting really is all about the kids. The kids are all about our futures. So, that’s where the focus should be.
I actually don’t have a problem with gay parents participating with their kids, as long as they are not a distraction or make a public point about being gay. They just can’t be scout leaders.
Scouting, for boys and girls, is such a good experience that I wish all children could participate. But, the leadership in scouting, like leadership in anything else involving children, also become role modeling.
I didn’t compare or contrast the two. The entire matter was about “risk”. Smoking around dynamite in a plant might have no impact. But, the risk is much higher that the entire plant will be blown into smithereens. By that same token, there is a much higher risk of sexual abuse of a child with homosexual scout leaders.
I have several friends who are gay, and work with some doing volunteer work. They’re fine people. Some are even Republicans. But, where several of them are concerned, they wouldn’t be my first choice for babysitters. (Actually, in other cases, a couple of them WOULD be high on that list.)
The point was about risk, not equating arsonists with fire-starting merit badges.
No straight adult male ever sexually molested a male child, because the adult ain’t “straight” – by definition. You’re right as far as you go about power. But, you didn’t go very far. It’s a much more complicated topic that is, thankfully, finally getting the in-depth and expansive study it deserves in science.
I’m sorry about your brother. It is often the case that just one incident of sexual molestation can ruin a child’s life.
That’s why it’s not worth the risk in scouting.
I’ve got an idea…why don’t we all read To Kill a Mockingbird and have book club next week?
Your comment is illogical…
“By that same token, there is a much higher risk of sexual abuse of a child with homosexual scout leaders.”
I like women. I like girl scout cookies. But when a girl scout comes to my door selling cookies, I don’t jump her.
The base attraction is for a woman, not a girl. Your implication is that a Gay Jew UP Dad might not be able to help himself with boys. Why not imply that he might jam a Menorrah in the boy’s hand and make him go to Temple?
There is no proof that a child is more at risk with a hetero vs homo for pedophilia. Apples & Oranges.
And…anyone that feels the need to belong to a party party party(Rep or Dem) has attachment issues.
“Some are even Republicans”. Wow. That’s just, wow. Silly. Goofy. Thank you for the laugh.
There is no solid scientific proof that homosexuality is not a choice. I think there will be, before long, but there isn’t now. Civil Rights is all about people who cannot physically change what they are.
That may not seem like much of a difference, but it’s a huge difference.
You cannot substitute black for homosexual.
P.S. Looks like the “attachment issue” folks didn’t do bad on Election Day.
I don’t have the magic combination to know which homosexuals might molest children, and which ones would not, in a setting such as scouting. So, I’d rather not take a chance than take the risk of calling it wrong. One incident can ruin a child’s life. It’s not worth it.
There are enough challenges for kids these days without introducing new ones that aren’t necessary.
Black men were vilified as inferior beings who lusted after white women. Homosexuals are vilified as inferior beings lusting after children. We need to protect minorities’ rights with laws precisely because that’s the only way we change discrimination. Most people would find it hard to accept now that black people had to sit in the back of the bus or women couldn’t vote or sit on juries. But we changed those practices only by passing laws. And the laws were changed with the help of civil disobedience and people speaking up for things that they considered wrong–just like on this blog! We have to continue to speak up for the rights of people whose sexual orientation is different than our own, which goes back to the argument that HPISD should end its partnership with BSA.
My comment about some gays being Republicans was said in jest.
Try not to take yourself so seriously. It comes across really strange.
I believe in protecting children as much as possible in an increasingly threatening and difficult world. I also believe scouting, for boys and girls, is a valuable experience. THAT’S WHY I SUGGESTED ABOVE THAT CHILDREN WHICH MAY BE DISPOSED TO BE OR BECOME HOMOSEXUALS SHOULD STILL HAVE A CHANCE AT GETTING INTO SCOUTING.
I guess you must have missed that part.
The “logic” that there is no way to determine which homosexual might molest children, so therefore it is best to excluse ALL homosexuals, isn’t flawed, it’s imbecilic. Since we also know that some pedophiles are heterosexual, I guess the extension of your logic would be that adult males should not be around young children. You know, just to be safe.
I guess that “logic” could never end. Fathers sometime murder their own children, so we should not allow children to be around their fathers, since we can not tell which fathers will murder their children. Some mothers murder…
It is pure ignorance to lump homosexuals with pedophiles. One has NOTHING to do with the other. I have also been a scout leader and I would prefer that my kids be around people who know who they are and admit it to the world. My gut feeling from working with scout parents in the park cities is that there are a lot of married, closeted homosexuals who participate. I never had any bad experiences with the scouts, but prefer that my kids be around mature adults who accept themselves rather than closeted conflicted individuals who are ashamed of who they are. We need to learn as a society to accept people.
I also believe that at some point it will be clear that sexual orientation is no more a choice than eye color.
currently connected with entire spectrum
of LGBT.
until the L and G separate themselves, they
will not get my support.
Bs are just greedy and Ts, after they have
been “transformed” are no longer gay.
It seems that all groups discriminate to some degree: club sports teams discriminate agains the unathletic, Girl Scouts discriminate against boys, Theater groups discriminate against the acting-challenged, book clubs discriminate against the illiterite… So – seems that all groups would be disallowed.
I feel certain that any potential leadership positions at the UPPL are pretty much gone now – with 2 misspellings on the same day.
It is 2010 and no one around here seems to think THAT is weird.
I remain amazed that Scouts were such a big part of the Park Cities that I could go to my girlfriend’s house after Mondy night meetings with my high socks, short shorts and everything and we could make out. And she was a PCBCr. My Yankee wife looks at those pics and thinks I was a dork.
2. The local Pack 70 and their leadership welcomed the Dad. It was other homophobic parents that admitted that they do not volunteer with the scouts that marched to the national level to complain. Had they simply volunteered and worked with the Dad, their child wouldn’t have been alone. It’s a good father/son bonding experience. And these complaining Dads can meet their sons friends and other scouts. And they could have worked with and along side a very nice person who happens to be homosexual.
3. Troop 70 and Pack 70 have kids from a variety of religions – both Christian and Jewish. I’ve camped with them before, but I never asked a scout about his religious beliefs. The Sunday service is non-denominational.
4. The school is the best place for this troop to meet. The only other free places are churches and synagogues. Then the Troop is associated with a specific religion. This troop enjoys its association with the school. They celebrated their 80th anniversary this year. The troop will help with the annual carnival at the school. They planted new bushes around the school. The Troop and Pack is open and is working to support the boys and help them grow into responsible leaders in our community.
5. Troop 70 & Pack 70 are fine organizations. Don’t bash them and their association with UP Elementary because of this.
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